John Githongo’s Kenya: Fantasy or Reality?
I was reading this interview that Githongo gave to the Standard and I started thinking about Githongo’s vision for Kenya. On one level, it is the right vision because it espouses a Kenya that is non-tribal, fair and just — a Kenya that will be (at it’s core) defined by the rule of law.
However, as I thought about his answers, I begun to wonder whether this guy was living in a fantasy land or if his naivety had finally gotten the best of him. Can you have this kind of Kenya in a country where so many people are still living below the poverty line? Can you create this country when the income divide is still so wide?
I would like to ask Githongo what kind of political model he thinks would work in Kenya, based on his analysis of political models around the world. I sometimes get the feeling that policy makers like Githongo think that they have to create an entirely new model for their own countries — one that has not been created or tested before, but you really don’t have to do that. I’ve said on numerous occassions, that the model for Kenya is Singapore: a dictatorship that believes in the rule of law (and this is not an oxymoron).
What is Githongo’s model? I’d like to know that.
The west likes to cite India because of it’s long history of democracy, but I think China’s system of non-democracy would actually be much better for Africa. However, since all the western donors don’t like China’s “system”, they’ve been “advising” African states to reject this model and embrace an alien European model of democracy that these countries are simply not ready for. Maybe Africa should stop taking advice from the west. Afterall, it hasn’t worked in 50 years.
What is democracy anyway?
**Should Githongo run for president in 2012?
KE, githongo’s a has-been. A smart person in his line of work, but he was unable to see through to the heart of Kenya and to THINK THROUGH consequences of his actions. He, to paraphrase the game, “wouldn’t get far” on hii idealism yake.
Githongo’s accusations partly contributed to the PEV.
He thought that ODM was perfect and he actually campaigned for them.
It shows how dangerously naive he is.
KE,
In a place like Kenya Singapore model won’t work. People in Kenya are very stubborn …. There is no way they’ll give a dictator a peace of mind.
May be for a short term…. But if the Singapore model were to be tried in Kenya they’d precipitate a series of coup’s which will leave many people dead.
At the end of the day.. Kenya has a complex problem. So many things are working against Kenya coming together to reach the goals of being stable… So many things… It will take ages before anything constructive happens.
OM, BS.
Singapore model would work well in Kenya. Alls you need is to get some choice heads to hoist on stakes before “the masses”, and bob’s your uncle. Kenyans are just crying out for something that works. Quit smoking your own stash.
Psyd Off: Githongo provided a blue-print… and ideal… one should strive for that… After all if we do not aim for the ideal then we will always under-achieve.
KeiO: No, it is NOT Githongo who is to blame but the politicians who stole votes including RAO & (especially) kibaki. Githongo showed us how entrenched corruption was in kibaki’s government. Why didn’t kibaki act on anglo-fleecing (hint: his family had a cut).
The scams continued… & now we have the KPC-Triton scam…
Singapore: It had a CLEAN leader. Yes, Lee Kuan Yew cared about Singapore. None of Kenya’s presidents cared about Kenya. Does anyone disagree?
- crooked wa ngengi (cwn) the self-styled bastard who grabbed land should have been deposed. He killed off promising leaders like Pio Gama Pinto (Mhindi), Tom Mboya (Luo) & JM Kariuki (Kikuyu). I blame (most of) the GEMA community for blindly supporting cwn when all he did was enrich himself & his cronies. crooked was no LKY.
- dan ‘the thief’ moi. He learnt from the best but exceeded cwn. Corruption blossomed during his ‘reign’. Uneducated bastard. Spoilt the lives of millions.
- emilio ‘sitting on the fence’ kibaki aka kibz. Sold us out in 1992. Formed a breakaway party with dan moi’s blessings that decimated the opposition. kibz could have left a legacy if he had kept corruption in check but he & his cronies led Kenya down the anglo-fleecing plot. And his bid for power in 2007 has devastated Kenya.
CT,
Kenya seriously need a good no nonsense dictator who treats all equally else the “other” tribes rise against him. Lee Kwan Yew was a bit it too clean. You can’t be too clean in a Kenyan tribal based system. Am thinking of Deng Xiaoping , the father of modern China. A reformist with Mao’s iron fist. Yes, few people like Ruto lost their heads literally, but that made everyone else straight. If Deng could hold a nation of billions together and modernise it,why not Kenya, a nation of 35 million.
And talking of KENYATTA, why are some blacks of the West especially Jamaicans and African Americans obsessed with him. I guess history books do lie. But I make sure to tell them the truth about Jomo. They even name their kids after him. May be you all heard of Kenyatta Walker, Kenyatta Wright or Kenyatta Jones, all of the NFL. I know Of Kenyatta Johnson from Hawaii whom when I explained to him that he wasn’t a true Freedom fighter was in shock and immediately phoned his dad who gave him that name. I told him his dad should have named him KIMATHI. I hope he did switch his name. Hope to locate him soon.
It’s interesting you propose a Singapore model…For that to work in Kenya, you must have selfless leaders who have the desire to make Kenya a better place to live. LKY is a very smart man, and he has made the system in such a manner that corruption is rooted out, but there are things that have been done to ensure his family wealth grows for years. Let’s put it this way, he is a very smart business man with a very high IQ, and he knows how people think, he is one step ahead of anyone.
In order for any nation to be successful, he realized early enough in his leadership role than human beings are contended when they have basic necessities in life like housing, food, clothing, jobs etc…He also realized that for Singapore to thrive, it needs to be a global country and attract foreigners, without this element the country would not have succeeded. He also realized that he needed an educated work force, without that there was never going to be any stability n success.
To me LKY has done wonders for Singapore, and his approach is definitely adoptable in Kenya. As for the chinese model, if you are not aware, alot of it was adopted from Singapore. Even though corruption (official) is there, all these leaders realized that for their nation to be successful they must ensure that their country is being developed, and the people of that nation’s wealth is growing, there are jobs that people can do…
For Kenya ever to reach the part of these Asian countries, we must have selfless leaders who are ready to do anything for the country and its people, but they also must be rewarded correctly for their results.
For example Singapore President salary is about Kshs 160M a year and PM is about Kshs 120M a year, while cabinet ministers earn anywhere from kshs 60m to 80m a year. The salaries are also pegged to the GDP growth of the country, so currently as the economy is turning down, they have taken immediate pay cuts of 20% or more….Singapore has about Kshs40trillion in reserves, that includes all the investment arms like Temasek & GIC (which in the media is highlighted as Sovereign wealth funds)….
Kenya has a long way to go, but we have to start with a clean slate, and we have to get rid of this whole bunch of idiots in the GCG, then only are we going to move forward.
Dee
I am still surprised at people like you who claim that Kenyatta was not a leader of the Mau Mau. You are a victim of miseducation.
Kenyatta was very much involved in adminstering the Mau Mau Oath as early as 1949 – before the Mau Mau war finally broke out in 1951. Kenyatta, Mbiyu Koinange and afew other intellectuals were the brains behind Mau Mau. Kimathi and others were the actual fighters.
In any case, Kenyatta was actually arrested in 1952 and only released in 1959. He was then placed in restriction only to be finally set free in 1961 when he was already a sick, old man.
Please go and some research with people on the ground.
I personally know people who were OATHED by Kenyatta himself!
Kenyans should learn to honour their heroes and heroines.
Whatever errors Kenyatta may have committed when he became the president, he is still hero.
The reason why Kenyatta is respected by black people in the diaspora is because of his involvement in the Pan-African movement in Europe in the 1930s.
Read your history Dee, Read your history…….
Those saying Kenyatta was bad should ask themselves who else could have been the alternative? Let us not judge the past using modern standards. The 1960s and 70s were marred by the Cold War and, without a strong leader, any the competing super powers could very easily put in place anyone to serve their interests – and not those of Kenyans. Most of the Kenyan infrastructure we are using today was built in the Kenyatta era: this includes roads, electricity, telecoms, schools, etc. Most of you writing in this blog probably grew up in council houses and went to council schools that functioned. What did Moi and Kibaki build: can anyone say that Dandora, Kayole and Pipeline are decent housing?
Anyway, back to Githongo: I read the Standard article and concluded that the man is striving to achieve unrealistic ideals in Kenya. Githongo is probably the only person who still beleives the ODM dream. I feel sorry for him because he is going to grow up into a bitter, lonely and dejected man. Its a pity considering the brains he has.
DEE,
You are Kenyan, right? living in the west, yet you go preaching of kenyatta’s ills to foreigners ? That’s a shame.
I do not know what history you studied to say that kenyatta did not fight for freedom ? Was he not jailed as part of the kapenguria six ?
Do u know how idiotic one looks when talking trash of their homeland to foreigners ? It’s just the same as seeing one’s mother / father naked ina drunken stupor and going to broadcast it to the whole world.
Kei O, Mzeiya.
Haiya! take it easy. Am not saying he wasn’t a Freedom fighter but he betrayed the movement. Even MOI went to Lancaster House to quest for freedom. He’s a Freedom fighter too, so what? Its about what KENYATTA did with the freedom he won. So Land grambing was okay just coz he was a Freedom fighter? And KEI O what history are you talking about? Don’t believe everything those books tell you. Do reasearch too.
Let me tell you true stories those books never tell you. My grandfather was a Mau Mau. Came out of the forest landless and remained so. His group tried to summon Kenyatta about it but its like he never gave a finger. Infact MOI did more for the former Mau Maus than Kenyatta. Ask their descendants especially from Nyeri. May be its the Kiambu Mau Maus that benefited. I dont know. Its not about asking things for free but Why did the traitors and collaborators reap the benefits of the struggle? Their children are the ones looting the country today. What do you think motivates the MUNGIKI movement?
And KEI O what OATH are you talking about? My grandmother took an oath too in Gatundu but was meant to divide and conquer the country and perpetuate a Kiambu dynasty. I will give you specifics. NYERI people like my grandma vowed to ensure non circumsized (ihii) people will never ascend to the throne. That was meant to keep off Luos and JARAMOGI from leading the nation. Kiambu people vowed to ensure the “ESCORT BIKES” will never cross the Chania River ( meaning the President should never come from Nyeri) The rest of Kikuyus vowed the freedom will never leave the “House of Mumbi”. People realized later they were hoodwinked to take 3 oaths in one. Am sure you are familiar with the story. Its no myth, it happened. So don’t act like KENYATTA was all that great. He never had the interests of Kenya at heart.
MZEIYA, Am not talking ill of Kenyatta in the west just stating facts. No worse than an American talking trash of Bush. Doesn’t make me unpatriotic. I don’t talk ill of KENYA, just the leadership.
DEMOGOD,
As I said before, Singapore economic model might be good for Kenya BUT the leadership model will never work. No matter how great LKY was for Singapore, he mostly made sure his family ran the system from top to bottom. Today, his son is the PM and he appointed him (his father) a minister of advice or some shit like that. In the Kenyan case, no matter how great you build the economy, if you perpetuate a family dynasty (Like Mbiyu Koinange wished for) somehow the mass will oppose you due to tribal nature of our country. Thats why GITHONGO or miss. KARUA are not electable in 2012 by virtue of Kibaki being a Kikuyu. Other “tribes” can produce presidents too ( ODM 2007 elections rally cry). On the other hand Singapore is mostly Chinese with a minority Malay and Tamils whereas Kenya has over 45 tribes (if you sub divide the Kalenjins). Thats why I said we need a “Deng Xiaoping”. Ruthless but patriotic. The Kenyan leader must be ready to Kill a few knuckleheads to deter others from looting. LKY jailed corrupt people.Kenya needs more than that (a form of Taliban style Kenyan Sharia). Looters can always buy their freedom. But if you kill looters like the way Mboya, Pinto,Ouko, Bishop Muge or JM were, then Kenya will be a corrupt free zone.
Godfrey, Kei O, Mzeiya,
You guys need to grow up…. KENYATTA blew up the ONLY opportunity for KENYA to become a stable country… Kenyans have a lot to thank the freedom fighters for..
But,
As it turns out … after independence Kenyatta made many wrong moves…
1. Allowing public servants to own businesses.
2. Amending the Constitution to remove many checks and balances..
3. Allowing people to grab land…
4. Suppressing leaders from other tribes e.g Oginga, Tom Mboya..
After independence Kenyatta made Kenya more divided and unstable….
So In my own opinion… Kenyatta was a freedom fighter… But he was NOT a Leader… Leaders don’t do stupid mistakes … Like he did..
I’m Sorry but thats the Truth !!
MZEIYA,
Assume you are somewhere in the West with a friend from Zimbabwe and a westerner joins your table. The new guy asks both whats happening in your countries. He/she talks of 10 million Kenyans facing starvation and a politician named Ruto knows where the maize went (its in the world press). He/she talks the same about Zimbabwe and Mugabe. How do you personally respond? I guess you don’t want to look “foolish” so you will describe Ruto as a God-given gift to Kenya. PEV is a myth and Starvation is all media rumors. You are Kenyan damu than others. Hey! Mugabe is no dictator, he’s a Freedom fighter i guess. Lets all in the diaspora praise our leaders so we don’t look foolish to foreigners as Mzeiya puts it. Let me tell you something, I’ll never torelate anyone talking ill of KENYA or her people. But you can talk shit about Kenyatta, Moi, Kibaki, Ruto from the West to the East and I won’t give a damn but just say “Amen”. And if you disagree, then you must be a beneficiary of looting.Think about it!
KEI O,
Whichever book told you that KENYATTA was the brains behind the MAU MAU and KIMATHI was the fighter also FAILED to tell that KENYATTA was told of the plot to kill KIMATHI and he never opposed it because he would have been a potential political rival. If they were a team, then how come Kenyatta never made any effort to locate Kimathi’s colonial grave and give him a descent burial after he became President? He had the power to do so. The books say he was his field General. In fact Kimathi was for the first time honored the other day by Kibaki. Kimathi street in Nairobi wasn’t Kenyatta’s idea.And those who betrayed KIMATHI of his whereabouts were told that he was the stubborn block preventing independence and only his capture would free us from colonialism. That book also failed to tell you that those who inherited the power at independence weren’t the Freedom fighters themselves but the former Traitors and Collaborators. I guess that book was from the British Press. Free your mind!
Ahem… it’s the 21st century people. I think the shrinks would say, now that you’ve had a good cry (I know I’ve had mine on this blog), GET OVER IT. Let’s talk about moving Kenya forward. Unless we are stuck in that whole “we are bewitched” head space. In which case…. anyone got pure white goats for us to sacrifice?
Psyd off:
Forget about moving kenya. How are we going to move ourselves forward. It’s each man for himself now.
If you want to move Kenya forward, then perhaps become a politician and try to change the system from there, but look at what happened to wangari maathai and all her good intentions.
I think the key in Kenya is to start a business that can take advantage of the cheap labor, but don’t depend on government contracts for your revenues and hide all your money in a foreign bank (just in case some stupid politician decides to come after you).
This is why 2012 is going to be dangerous because Kikuyu’s are not going to give up their power — they know that if Raila comes in, they’ll lose those contracts, which are making them rich.
Until Kenya has a private sector that is free from government interference or that is not dependent on government contracts for it’s sustenance, the fight for political power will remain dangerous.
KE,
There is no way Kikuyu will give up their power….. Raila made a big mistake to join the Grand Coalition…
Now people know that Raila being in Ruto’s party is part of the corruption syndicate….
Thats why Karua is talking loudly about Ruto dismissal…. If Raila ditches Ruto… Then Raila has no chance of securing the Kale Vote…. Come 2012… and If Raila does not ditch Ruto then the argument will be … Raila is weak on Corruption
The power games are just begining…. I don’t know what the future holds… But its very unpredictable…. Raila will be the eventual loser and will sell out the Luo’s.
KE & ALL,
What do you know about this guy PLO, Patrick Lumumba O, Kenyan lawyer with the nack of using big words.
Is it true he was a MOI Mole from back in the day sand was snitching on his reformer minded colleagues ?
KE,
I think as Kenyans, we need to move beyond “euphoria politics”. As you mention about WANGARI MAATHAI and her intentions, she just happened to be in the “wrong” party. We vote in “parties” NOT individuals or ideas. Thats why corruption and impunity will never cease coz political crooks know how to read people’s euphoria and just jump in under the suit of the moment. One day they are in KANU, the ship sinks they jump onto ODM but who cares what they did, its the “party” of the moment. As they say , a dog would have won a parliamentary seat in Luo Nyanza on a ODM ticket. I don’t know whether its lack of civic education or plain ignorance but when we start to value individuals over “packs” then change might happen.
What about we take it to the next level. Ban all political parties from sponsoring parliamentary candidates except the presidency. Advertise cabinet positions. Privatise all corporations except the Post Office. Any more ideas?
Mzeiya,
If P.L.O is ready to run … then let him tell Kenyans about his plans….. First he has to declare his wealth and where he got it from..
After this he has to tell us how he plans on rooting out corruption and negative ethnicity among other problems which have undermined our whole being as a stable country…
I personally don’t see any alternative leadership in Kenya…. The only option remaining now … Is Military rule…..
We cannot keep on recycling the same politicians and expecting different results from them…. They are all the same….
We need a Military goverment in Kenya as soon as possible because the current parliament will not give us a good constitution ….They will make sure they are in control…… But kenyans want to be in control of their own future..
Dee
I talked about the MAU MAU OATH.
If you know your Kikuyu culture very well (which I am beginning to doubt), you will understand that the community takes an oath when faced with a big challenge. The MAU MAU started oathing in preparation for WAR in 1947. This was soon after Kenyatta came back from England in 1946.
The other OATH you are talking about is the 1969 OATH taken after Mboya’s assassination when it was rumoured that some leading Luo politicians wanted to overthrow Kenyatta.
Kenyatta was an administrator of the MAU MAU OATH. That is why I told you to do your research properly. Comprende?
It is a well know fact that Kenyatta, Mbiyu Koinange, Waiyaki family and others were the BRAINS behind MAU MAU.
*****
The reason why Kenyatta suppressed overt celebration of the MAU MAU after independence is because he did not want to promote Kikuyu/Gema nationalism. It is a well documented fact that the bulk of the freedom fighters were Gema people. Indeed, the MAU MAU war was only fought in Central, Nairobi and Central RV areas.
And again, the 1970s was the Cold War Era and Kenyatta had to make a choice for the wider good of the country. Look at what happened to Kenya’s neighbours when they made the wrong choices – Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Uganda and Tanzania. Need I say more?
Infact, I now believe that the problem is NOT the Kenyan leaders. The problem is the KENYAN PEOPLE.
Like someone in this forum suggested, they are just IDIOTS!
Kenyatta has been DEAD for more than 30 years! You now have “GOOD” leaders whom you recently elected. What changes have they implemented?????
@Demogod: Pay for play… The Singaporeans have a good model. They pay based on GDP. Kenyan politicians get paid well REGARDLESS of the economy’s performance. The Singaporean prez deserves his pay. kibz should be paying Kenyans!!!
@Godfrey: All the so-called projects in crooked wa ngengi’s days are a result of what good systems the Brits left in Kenya. In the 1960s, many of the planners, etc were from the colonial days & this carried on until they were replaced.
The rot started in crooked’s presidency. The land-grabbing, the matatus & the corruption. It was crooked who re-instated paul ‘pilfering’ ngei as a minister after he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
Dee: On the kenyatta stuff, I agree with you. crooked wa ngengi might have fought for freedom but unlike Nelson Mandela, crooked does not deserve our thanks for he reversed all the gains. I believe Kenyans are worse off in 2008 than in 1963.
Ole Mibei: In spite of your earlier rants about me… I still can’t figure out why… you have succinctly summarised why crooked wa ngengi was not a true leader. And I agree with you on this point.
KeiO: Most Kenyans are idiots, they still elect ‘leaders’ based on ethnicity & not quality. The bitter truth is Kenyans have the leaders they deserve.
CT,
The rant was misdirected….. It was meant for a bugger named “Lord”.
KE,
From the article…. I felt Githongo is also getting tired with flogging a dead horse.It’s easy to tell when someone has toned down his vibe..
I’m also pushed to believe Githongo wants human rights upheld…. Since he was chair to the Transparency a human rights body…
So for Githongo… The Singapore and China Model are out of the window….
The reason I said the Singapore and China model won’t work is because…. Kenya has a complex differences in Culture and ethnic balance…
People have to appreciate that our ethnic differences have so far not worked in bringing us together … But has worked in making us more distrustful of each other…
In China… The Han are the majority ethnic group… The Han are 92% of the population… In Kenya … Kikuyu are only 20 %…
By just the Luhya (15%) and the Luo(13%) coming together… They make a bigger block than the Kikuyu’s…
People have to start seeing the bigger picture…. Kenya Ethnic situation is more complex than what they have In China… The HAN ethnic group are over 92% of Chinese population… This makes it easier to have a system that is authoritarian !!
But in Kenya, Again … Not that easy… Ethnicity is something Kenyans need to study more… because If they can solve this problem of TRUST…. Then I guess the rest will get easier !!
I’m assuming everybody know majority of singaporeans are Chinese(78%) mostly from the HAn ethnicity !!
Ole Mibek
Am the LORD …..Why are you calling me a bugger…This is my firts line on this piece?
I agree with what you say on Kenyas ethnic balance…. I have argued in the past that only a federal system can remove the mistrust you are talking about…am on record here saying
Kenyatta put this country on a wrong tangent……..
Nyerere put TZ on a right tangent
USA founding Fathers put the country on a right tangent….
So why are you calling me a Bugger…..byat!
Lord
Kenyatta put this country on the wrong tangent – well, well, well, why don’t we resurrect Kenyatta to put it on the right tangent then? Get my drift?
Stop the Blame Game and Play Your Part in Nation Building.
Kei O,
amen to your drift! we don’t see Asian countries holding hands and singing kumbaya the way we africans/kenyans do. Can we please just get a life and quit the whining about the past leaders? We are here and now, and nothing we do or say or cry about can change the reality of the moment. Suck it up and sort yourself out (per KE) so the nation can hopefully be sorted out.
Ole Mibei:
That’s interesting information you’ve provided on the ethnic make-up of both China and Singapore.
KE,
I can give you more examples….. You will be surprised…… The more a country has an ethnic balance the more stable the country Is..
This is the reason why Kenya cannot be compared with other countries which don’t have a similar ethnic arrangement…
Ghana for Instance – The Akan 45.3% the second group comes at a paltry 15%(Mole-Dagbon )… Most presidents In Ghana have come from the Majority group… with a big portion of parliament seats.. This is why Comparing Ghana and Kenya is not even.. To add on this… Many people have said Ghana is model state of peaceful elections…
Indonesia also has Javanese 40.6%, Sundanese 15%…… The Javanese have dominated the politics in Indonesia for a long time….
In Botswana the Tswana (or Setswana) 79%, Kalanga 11% …. The Tswana political dominance allows them to have more stability … Since their is no power struggle against other tribes of same size….
There are many other countries which I can show as examples… But my main point is…. Kenya does not have a clear ethnic leader…. This in my opinion has resulted in a power struggle for domination in day to day politics…
This as a result has undermined any of Kenya’s plan of ever becoming STABLE politically….
I think the election system needs to changed In Kenya to at least address this Ethnic Issue at the party level…. The election system we have in Kenya Is a copy paste solution …. We need a different Voting System … That will reflect the diversity and will give us more choices for leaders…. At present we elect whomever the party chooses… Kenyans cannot afford to waste more time with a Voting System that rewards Tribalism !! If tribalism can be removed from the election Equation… Then I think It can help reduce conflicts ..
Nigeria has a closely similar problem Like Kenya …. They have four major tribes in a power struggle…. Hausa and Fulani 29%, Yoruba 21%, Igbo (Ibo) 18%
OLE MIBEI,
What about TZ? Their tribal formula is more complex than Kenya’s yet they have have no internal conflicts. There is a say that if you ask a Tanzanian what tribe they are from, they respond “you must be a Kenyan!”. Am sorry to keep reversing the clock but it goes back to KENYATTA. He had a chance to build the foundation but he failed. TZ is the way it is due to NYERERE’s Unity vision back at independence. Any naysers?
KE,
Not to take away Ole Mibei’s credit, but I already provided you the info. about Singapore ethnic make up way before. Check my earlier inputs. Don’t take away my swagger! haha.
KEI O,
I guess you agree KENYATTA was a tribalist! Why oath the Kikuyus after Mboya’s assassination? He was part of the conspiracy. Whats the difference between the Oath and those looters who claim its their “tribe” being targeted. Thats what Tribalists and looters do. When it gets hot,they hide behind their tribal cocoons to escape justice.
Dee,
This is the same problem… I’m trying to address here. Tanzania has gone through the Ujamaa system right after Independence…
You people… If you continue comparing Kenya with other countries which took a different approach and don’t have the same ethnic make up like Kenya… Kenya will end up a failed state…
Tanzanians went through socialism… Did this not happen ?
Dee why are you starting the blame game ?…..
We have the problem…. We need to solve It… Lets not start blame game…. Because honestly everybody is to blame…. for not realizing whats eating us from within..
First step we need to address the Voting System and come up with something more workable with the Kenyan situation…. But from the way you’re talking … That’s the same way most Kenyans think…. The problem will take ages to solve If you guys keep on passing the buck!!
Dee,
Also to answer your Question….
The biggest ethnic group in Tanzania is the Sukuma(13%) of pop……. The rest of the Tribes are less than 5%
Dee,
Tz is not an Ideal success story… What are you trying to say … That we(Kenya) should adopt socialism to solve ethnic problems ?
This is not my Idea… This is something which is very well documented by western scholars….. Lot of Grad students have written many thesis on this very topic of ethnicity…
So nobody is taking away your swagger … This is a swagger owned by the scholars in their Journals !!
Ole Mibei:
Why don’t you give us an example of a country that is close to kenya in terms of ethnic make-up and that has managed to develop a workable system?
Philippines Is a good start …. Although they are still politically unstable and developing country.. Their ethnic make up is closely similar to Kenya’s
Ethnic groups in Philippines- Tagalog 28.1%, Cebuano 13.1%, Ilocano 9%, Bisaya/Binisaya 7.6%, Hiligaynon Ilonggo 7.5%, Bikol 6%, Waray 3.4%, other 25.3% (2000 census)
Again its not possible to find a perfect fit to Kenya – Kikuyu 22%, Luhya 14%, Luo 13%, Kalenjin 12%, Kamba 11%, Kisii 6%, Meru 6%, other African 15%, non-African (Asian, European, and Arab) 1%
But I hope you get the picture I’m Deriving here… That most countries with ethnic groups like the ones above … Will find it hard to be STABLE…
KE…. I want you to ask yourself Just a Simple question …. Why Is EGYPT…. Which is in Africa and is Just one country apart from Kenya FAR More Stable Than Kenya which is Its next door neighbor ?
Then Look at their Ethnic Make Up… Egyptian 99.6%, other 0.4% …
This same story repeats itself virtually all developed countries… Even the United States..white 71.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Hispanic 15.1%..
OM (you sure you’re not one of those jungu anthropologists who looks at everything as tribe, conveniently forgetting that there are only 2 tribes in Kenya?), some might argue that Kenya’s lack of an outright majority ethnic grouping is our saving grace.
Dee. Kenyatta started it. But SO WHAT? Moi’s quarter century continued it (he had a choice and he chose the low road. To sing from mountain tops about their incompetencies is not new information. What we need is new information. And by the way, if you hang out with real revolutionaries (not revisionists) you will learn why Kwame, Nyerere, Kenyatta et al. are still considered important figures (regardless of what they did). It is because you are looking at them from the PRIVILEGED position of a free African, a freedom they GAVE you, even as you criticize them. Like KE said, in this swamp called Kenya, the best thing to do is drive yourself forward. If you, however, prefer to spend your energy looking back like Lot’s wife, make you sure you’re not heard to complain later about how it’s unfair that others got ahead while you were stuck in the mud of the past.
CT, Githongo’s idealism is fantastic, but it does not provide us with steps to take to go from A to Z. We are a crushed, tarnished nation. Githongo should be honest and say that any improvements will not occur in our lifetimes. The best we can do is put in place the framework, but WE WILL NOT SEE THE PROMISED LAND. It will be the grand kids who will. Once we can all take it from that point, we’ll know how to move forward in this Dark Age quagmire called Kenya.
Ole Mibei
Three words for you – SOMALIA, RWANDA & BURUNDI.
These are countries that are near 100% homogeneous but my God have they messed up!
My point is that even though ethnicity may have a destabilising role in Africa, it is not automatic that homogeneity will breed stability.
To those of you obsessing on TANZANIA
It is a failed state.
Life in Tanzania is much more dire than in Kenya – even with all of Kenya’s problems.
Kenyans still have a better, healthier and happier lives than Tanzanians – and we have more MONEY!
Have you visited Tanzania recently?
Tanzania is facing massive scandals – bigger than our Maizegate, Oilgate etc but they are swept under the carpet under the dictatorship.
Tanzania is a police state. Worse than Kenya in the mid 80s.
KeiO
Somalia may be a bad case now But its vital signs are GOOD…Somalia will be stable within 5 yrs….i ahve said this before….
BURUNDI & RWANDA are not homogeneous For Heavens Sake….YOU CANNOT FUDGE facts Mr. KeIO
Burundi & Rwanda are countries Dominated politicaly by a minitory
Nilotic 15 % Tutsi who lord it over 85% Bantu Hutu…
RWANDA & BURUNDI will never be stable TILL the majority rules….
KENYA will never be stable till we address the ethnic issue
Ole Mibei
The bugger
There is nothing new you are saying..we have said it before…But what you are saying is true
Say it straight…What do you fear..
KENYAs problem is ethnic mix…therefore federalism. is the panecea..PERIOD….
Any body fearing federalism must be BENEFITING (by theft) from the largese of a far off (without owners) centrl gov
Keio
You can never reverse time…what we mean the country was set on a path of self destruction by Kenyata…Now other enyans know their rights and history there is no chance of saving Kenya…….
The pev was just trigered by rigged elections but what spurned it was the Historical INJUSTICE
Ponder this …why is it the Kalenjins, the Masais & the Coastals are the ones who evicted others…..
Only because the Kenyatta gov resettled kenyans (Kiuyus only somehow) on kalenjin,masai & mijikenda lands . PERIOD…..
The other kenyans (kambas ,Luos,Luhyas,Kikuyus Somalis etc) are NOT ‘good host’ unlike the Kalenjin …its only they have no setlers among them
Kei O,
I agree with what you are saying….. Its not automatic having an outright majority ethnic group will make a country more stable… The outright majority ethnic group has to be stable politically first…… And all the countries you mentioned are not homogeneous… They just have an outright majority ethnic groups..
I guess all I’m saying is… Using a Voting system…. Like the one In Kenya fans ethnic conflicts…
Kenya needs a voting system that does not reward tribalism…. If the First Past the Post Voting system is not overhauled….. Then bitterness that exists between tribes will continue to thrive..
Don’t you guys see this In Kenya ?….. When Election Time Comes…. Its time for waving the Tribal card….. This undermines the whole purpose of leadership..
We need a Voting System in Kenya that does not do this….
“Lord”,
I have said in my past post…. This is not something new… Its very well documented by Western Scholars…..
Many of them suggest different ways of tackling ethnic rivalry during elections…… But the one problem they all agree with Is Single Plurality Voting System fans Ethnic Bitterness and rivalry ..
I agree with the rest of what you’re saying…. Federalism is a step in the right direction but Federalism will not address the election problem unless tailored to do so….. The election problem needs another fix by itself..
Ole Mibei, Lord et al
The moment you start thinking “TRIBE” – that is the moment you lose direction.
Tribe is too small a unit to survive in today’s globalised environment. What we should at least be aspiring to is a regional federation, if not a pan-african federation.
Ole Mibei, I do not understand why you need “Western Scholars” to validate your argument. Even a villager in the remotest village in Kenya will tell you that “Unity is Strength”. Decolonise your mind and say this 100 times – YES I CAN!
And just for clarification, I did not say that Somalia, Rwanda & Burundi are homogeneous – I said they are nearly 100% homogeneous. But I think you get the thrust of my argument i.e. that ethnicity is not the sole reason for instability in Africa. There are myriad reasons and to focus on ethnicity alone is to lose direction – completely.
The fact remains that Kenyatta is an African hero. He had his flaws (like you do). He has been dead for more than 30 years – so it is my and your duty today to correct whatever mistakes he may or may not have made.
The one thing I have recently discovered though is that Kenyans are cowardly, whiners and losers who like pointing fingers at other people. And this is especially the so-called elite middleclass e.g. Lord and Ole Mibei.
I would like to know how many of those who shout “REVOLUTION! EtHNIC FEDERATION!” on this blog would actually be willing to carry a machete or an AK47 and actually “REVOLT”.
Suddenly, there is a deafening silence…….
Need I say more?
Just for the record:
I will never lift my hand in violence against a fellow African sufferer – except in self-defence which I believe is a God-given inalienable right.
I will never advocate mindless, primitive violence against my fellow African sufferer, especially at the behest of selfish politicians who just want to gain power so that they can enrich themselves.
Revolution, my ass!
What a big joke!
KeIo
This is just semantics….The so called Kikuyus are NOT a tribe….They are a full fledged Nation (with distinct own land ,culture, and language)….Larger than Norway or Singapore,Rwanda etc…I do not understand what you mean by small
Second…Why do you fear say Luos demanding some form of autonomy…you do not feed them and even if you DO FEED them then if they have fedrate out your burdens will be less
Revolution
Yes .You do not have to ask for it.
The only thing you need to do is to keep voting in the usual manner and staeling in the same manner….Sure it is comming like tommorow….
I think you are of those who used to go round that we are one ,Kenya moja…etc….Check now…we are already in this list
Liberia,Yugoslavia,Congo,Kenya……Yes Number 4….
KEI O,
I agree with Lord that the word tribe is semantics…
KEIO … I don’t know where you’re from but I tell you If you don’t see ethnic conflicts in a country like Kenya undermining Stability.. You must have your head in the sand…
Ethnicity is the most fundamental thing that most people Identify with in Countries like Kenya….. Political stability is dependent on how people Identify with each other and how harmonious the relations between these groups are…
There is no way to make a person forget their Tribe….. Its like asking someone to forget their mother…. Assimilation is not an option either….. because ethnic rivalry & bitterness is already entrenched…
I’ve not supported any revolution in Kenya… I have supported use of military to punish corrupt state officials… Through a martial court.. What you have to understand is that the Mungiki, Kamjesh and all these other ethnic outfits are clear result of tribal loyalty and these people’s cause is borne out of being from the same tribe and having the same Identity..
Somalis did not have political stability in their own majority ethnic group…. and Rwanda and Burundi… Just shows you that the Hutu’s and the Tutsi’s are two different Nations…. marginalizing the Tutsi is what exacerbated the bitterness between the two tribes…
Stop using example you don’t understand….. First read history and ask your teacher questions …. before using a country as example..
Ole Mibei
I think you do not understand manipulation. Kenyans have been manipulated by self-serving individuals to put tribe above all else. Unfortunately, this has now gathered critical mass to the extent that it threatens the very politicians who started it. The irony is that these self-serving individuals are actually FRIENDS.
However, when the revolution breaks out (if it ever will) the rich and influential will escape and leave the STUPID FOOLS killing each other.
I use the words STUPID FOOLS intentionally. I have picked them up from my West African friends and they so succintly describe the Kenyan native.
****
Whether you call it tribe or nation is irrelevant and you are trying dodge my point. That unit whatever you call it is unsustainable e.g. Swaziland, Lesotho, Botswana (a very weak country despite a semblance of normality – Zimbabwe recently threatened to overrun Botswana in 2 days!), Zimbabwe (89% Shona 11% Ndebele) etc.
The way forward is good governance not ethnic federalism.
As for Kenya, I agree with you that we need STRONG leadership.
A benign dictatorship as has been suggested here and elsewhere.
Kenyans would not die of bullets if they ever started fighting – they would starve to death.
They are already starving in peace time……
One wonders what would happen in REVOLUTION time…….
KeiO,
This is just shows your level of Ignorance…
Kenyans are not stupid….. Most just don’t understand and are limited in their knowledge on how to deal with their problems…..
I agree the politicians has abused this Identity(Ethnic)…. But that doesn’t mean Kenyans are Stupid..
I beg to differ…. Kenyans are the Smartest people on earth…. If they understand what their problems are and address these problems accordingly .. They will be able to achieve their potential….
***************
To address the other problem you have mentioned “sustainability”…
I agree that the tribe is not sustainable in the long run… But what about the short run…. What about now… The long run depends on the short run…. The stability we have in short run will determine the long run or any regional convergence…
So my suggestion is we need to address the short term problems first before we start thinking of whether the tribe in sustainable… Which is obvious that the tribe is relevant in the short run..
****************
About this revolution you’re talking about…. Kenya cannot have a revolution when people don’t Identify with each other…..
Until Kenyan people can fully Identify with each other…. Not divided are we are now.. on tribal lines..
*******************
PSYSD OFF,
For your info. am not stuck in the mud but subscribes to the idea that those who forget history tend to repeat it. Thats why whether we move Kenya forward or not, we MUST never forget those who put us in this mess in the first place or second place or whatever, the likes of KENYATTA. Yes I’ll say it again.
KEI O,
The way you defend KENYATTA you must come from Gatundu. Its all good.
LORD,
r u seriuos that somalia will be a stable country in 5 years ? why do u say this ? They’v had more than enough time to be stable, somalia is a failed state unless oil is discovered, that’s when you’ll see the west starting to give a damn. Honestly, look at what happened in southern sudan ? They were being slaughtered for so many years, no one gave a hoot dspite appeals from human rights groups. and then what happens ? Voila, oil is discovered and then u see the west, akin Gen Collin Powell, all of a sudden being “concerned” about the situation and then the guy even travels there to help in brokering a peace deal.
OLE MIBEI:
Interesting thesis you have about the ethnic make up of a country and how it affects order, progress peace, etc. However, I think your assertons are theories not fact, ask me why ? Look at Zimbabwe? how many ethnic groups at least majorities ? It’s the Shona, Ndebele, then other small groups, yet everyone is suffering.
I agree with ANOM, Everyone is to blame not just kenyatta, I MEAN dAN mOI had 24 yrs to right the situation, but NO!
Kibaki had 5 yrs, But NO!
Raila has the chance but judging from his campaign rhetoric ( tutaondoa madoadoa Rift Valley ) I think he will follow in his predecessors shoes.
Mzeiya,
There is no post election Ethnic Conflict In Zimbabwe…. 82% of the population is Shona…. Politics is dominated by the Shona… and so are the two main parties… MDC and ZANU PF…… Infact… even after these past elections having been rigged by Mugabe…. There was virtually no post election ETHNIC conflicts between tribes… Like It was in Kenya..
Violence related incidents in Zimbabwe is toward removing a Shona who is president… And the biggest opposition party is Shona dominated.( Mugabe and Tsvangarai are both Shona)
The political instability in Zimbabwe… Is caused by Mugabe who is holding on to power… This is not the case like in Kenya…. In Kenya our Instability as shown in the past election are Ethnic related …. Its easy …. Just go back and look at the 92,97 elections… then look at the 2007 pre and post election conflicts they are all ethnic conflicts..
Whatever you want to call it… theories…facts… Facts can be deduced from theories….
********************
Ole MIBEI,
you may have a theory but much more facts are needed to draw a hypothesis.
Your theory reminds me of a similar one that states ” No two or more western style democracies have ever gone to war with each other”. Very true but if you look closely on this one you find almost all those countries are members of one security body NATO or have no shared borders (Japan, Australia and New Zealand). Back to your case, am sure there is an odd one out there.
Dee,
I can give you a example of a country that has a outright majority ethnic group and still has ethnic conflicts…. An example would be Sri Lanka where there are regular clashes between government troops and Tamil rebels who are a minority…(Sinhalese 73.8%, Sri Lankan Moors 7.2%, Indian Tamil 4.6%)….
********************
May be this is an Idea(theory) which is way beyond its time and scope for Kenyans…. Or may be I could be wrong… Who knows.. May be the Mungiki will wake up tomorrow and start weaving baskets and singing amazing grace .. and vote for Raila.. ..
Anything can happen guys… Keep up the hope !!
********************
OLE MIBEI,
Thank You for mentioning Sri Lanka (Ceylone). But AM NOW TOTALLY CONFUSED. Are we talking about Political conflicts or religious ones as well?
I thought Sri lanka was about Majority Budhists (Sinhalese) vs. minority Hinduists (Tamils) and to some extent Muslims (moors). If that the case I can give you dozens of examples. From former Yugoslavia to Israel. I thought our Kenyan conflict situation was different coz religion ain’t a factor but TRIBE. Any response?
@Lord, I only wish you can be given the wembe of federation that you have such a h*-on for. Then maybe you can start to understand why advancing nations have seen it best to unite. Just bear in mind the cost of that exercise will be that you will still be behind everyone else who saw the light before you chose to.
@Dee. Rock right on with that backward looking swagger.
@Psyd off
Give me….Now…Just give me. According to you do you think we shall satrve in our enlave? Oh Oh….Nobody is feeding us now ..we pick fruit in the wild that was
not planted by Kibaki but GOD
Any its comming….am only piting you since you seem to rely on others so much……
Mzeiya
Somalia is good..Believe me .Mzeiya can you NOT see that HATRED between the somali warloads is far less than inter ethnic relations in Kenya. The Kenayn case is really very bad….DO NOT BURRY your head!! Look around
@DEE
There are two types of alegience..Religious and National…
In Indian Pakistan & srilanka Religion is the thing …though nationalis follows very strong second…
You see a High caste Tamil can marry a High caste Gujarati…Different Nationalities but same religion…..
Kenya
The dominationg factor in kenya is nationalities….not religion…A kalenjin Christian owes more to a kalenjin traditionlist than to a Kikuyu Christian and Vice versa.. in any case all chuches in NRB have specific followers based on strict thnic lines
exemp the catholics~ but even them they do not love each other more than their tribes
.You know what i mean
LORD,
You surely a “Lord of sense”. I can’t put it better than you just did. Am with you on that one to the grave.
PYSD OFF,
Why do you wanna forget history? Isn’t that what we learn from. Thats why we say “forgive but never forget” like we forgave KENYATTA and MOI but it still clings onto our memories of their mess. I guess you must have struggled in that subject in school too.
KE,
I hear Githongo has a new book coming out on Ethno Nationalism…. May be this..
Will give more Kenyans a glimpse of what is going on …. May be … Who knows.. it seems many are hell bent of keeping the status quo ?
@Lord & Dee: the problem is you are thinking with your stomachs at a time that humanity has evolved beyond that. It’s not about the berries in your backyard, or who past sins (real or fantasized about) but about how you can turn them into more than just food. But like someone said, Kenya is many different worlds in one; some further ahead than others. And I ain’t saying that to think with the stomach is necessarily bad, just not the right organ for this time in history. I hereby rest my case. Will be seeking INDIVIDUAL advancement forthwith. (bows out of a kraal had no business being in to begin with).
Ole Mibei
I did not advocate for any revolution in Kenya. Perhaps you did not get the gist of my argument.
I am totally opposed to any violent changes in Kenya. It is your friend LORD who says that he wants a revolution in Kenya.
My opinion is that Kenya cannot even sustain a 1 month conflict. People would actually STARVE to death.
Did you see what happened during the PEV violence last year?
Coast was already starving after only 2 weeks of violence
Nyanza was already starving
Parts of Central, Eastern, RV and N. Eastern were already starving
My advice to Kenyans is to AVOID violence at all costs:
It is the most primitive method of solving disputes.
Kei O,
I agree with the starvation point… but this being the case… It means Kenyans are being called to understand the need to Identify with each other all across the board.. through the country.
Tribalism is a weakness that Kenyans have… This weakness undermines Kenyans being able to forge forward to achieve the potential & prosperity that Kenya can achieve.
I did not say you support Revolutions…. All I’m saying is that If any revolutions occur at this time…. They will not be a national revolution….. They will be ethnic revolutions…. That’s all I’m saying..
Unless people Identify with each other across the board…. Only then will Kenya achieve Its potential…..(especially the big tribes)..
Kenya needs a voting system that does not reward tribalism…. If the First Past the Post Voting system is not overhauled….. Then bitterness that exists between tribes will continue to thrive..
People all over the World wonder why Kenya elections are volatile…. People wonder… why can’t kenya learn from previous PEV’s and move on with life…
There is a saying… Doing something twice the same way and expecting different results… Is madness…. There was violence in 92,97 and 2007.. now we still want to close our eyes and expect something different in 2012…. forget it..
Kenyans need to review the Voting system that was copy paste from its Colonialists….
Parliamentary elections and Presidential elections need to be held on two years apart to reduce chances of spiraling rigging and ethnic violence ….. and to give the ECK more time to and less work in preparation for elections…
Kwani you guys don’t see Kenyans having the same violence come 2012 ?…. Nothing has changed…. Not even the voting system… We are going to repeat the same mistake again..
We would rather spend more on elections than spend a fortune in rebuilding a run down economy ..
I so much hope they Include changes like this in this coming constitution… Or else we will be repeating the same mistake come 2012..
*********************
LORD,
I’m starting to feel you may have a point about somalia. I just read that E Cables are investing heavy in there coz they xpect the conflict to be over soon and re-construction to begin..
@Mzieya
Thanks
Interlectual honesty is a sign of an inteligent and a noble man
Kenya
Kenyas problem are all but ethnic.. If we manage them (ethnic federal units) like Germany ,India and all the world we shall have a chance in this world…otherwise NILL
Somalia
Already they have agreed structures of Federal tribe states like Ogaden..Awiye state, Marehan State for Marehan clans etcs
LORD,
thank u. I feel that TZ beat us in one area fair and square : tribalism / non tribalism.
I feel this is one area where nyerere was right and his vision was good. Tanzanians of all origins, black yellow, mixed, indian, arab, are less inclined / aware about their tribal affiliations unlike kenyans.
The whole swahili unifiacation idea was an excellent startegy for nationalism. This is where kenya went wrong. Kenyatta could have done more and till currently, is an area that is a great weakness in kenya. There is no cohesion. Tanzanians think of themselves as Tzians first and tribe a distant last place. In kenya People think of themselves thru their tribes and country-NEVER, Only when we travel to foreign lands and we’re still disunited!! what a shame.
But With these developments in somalia, I see many kenyans moving there to explore the opportunities. I guess the somalis have finally seen that all the infighting does not help no one, even the warlords, ammunition costs are rising globally.
LORD, However, if somalia is able to pull it off and get a peace deal similar to south sudans, then by all mean I’ll be very bullish on somalia as the fastes growing eceonomy in Africa, yes AFRICA, not just the eastern part. ask me why ?
Because somalia, unlike sudan, has a huge network of economically sucessful somali diaspora located in all regions of the world, from kenya, eastleigh, to US, Europe, Austarlia, etc. Most of these guys still maintain very strong family ties and for the most part have been the ones sustaining the country thru sending money their.
I can see, KCB and Equity setting up shop there permanently. No wonder the kenyan gvt is all giddy about building a railway line to run thru the northeast and establishing marsabit / isiolo as cities…..hhhhmmm sly move.
The growth in somali would be fueled by tenfold increase in remittances by somali diapora who’l now have the confidence to invest whole heartedly in their land.
@Mzeiya
Brilliant Piece…Somalis would be light years..
1).They have a huge diaspora.
2) They are great bussinessmen ..
3) They are honest (in biz)
4) They are muslim…(easier to tap on interest free Credit from the brotherhood)
MOI (former) president admited in retirement that the future of Kenya is tied to that of Somalia..He feared a prosperous Somalia will demand NEP from a warring and fractous Kenya and it will take it…fearing disintegrating of KENYA….”Kaeni kwa amani”
A very strong Somalia might mean the end of Kenya..Funny the dynamics of things…….
@Mzeiya..
Though things look bad let us NOT despair but fight to eliminate negative ethnicity & corruption…Its true it starts with us…BUT our leaders have the greatest role to play
Ethiopia will never allow a very strong Somalia – watch this space.
The threat to Ethiopia from a strong Somalia is even greater than that to Kenya.
Ethiopia as a greater Somali population than Kenya in Ogaden.
KeIO
You have a point…The OROMO (OLF). Its a far greater threat to Ethiopia than Ogadenis…..Oromos are over 40million..
The Oroma also occupy upper eastern (Boranas).
….The Ethipians literally ran away from a failed state somalian fighters …..They can not face a standing somalia…given the way ethiopai is…
Its facing Eritria…..and miriads of internal conflicts
Kenya should manage its ethnic problems fast (ie federate) otherwise it will be split by either somalis or Oramos
Lord, Kei O, Mzeiya,
As long as we have the Meru’s there is nothing to fear. The meru’s will keep the supply of Miraa to the Somali’s ..
The Miraa business will improve and money will start coming in. I’ve always said Kenya needs more Military bases in NEP. I know there will be a war and we need to get prepared sooner rather than later. The Somali’s are well armed and the fact that the Muslim militia have taken over mogadishu … Is a sign that things could be going to the worst.
Kenyan leaders need to get prepared for the real possibility of serious altercation with Somali. I don’t know.. why Kibaki is dragging on everything … This is very inappropriate.